Smart Start: Embracing Empathy in Meetings

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In this episode of Smart Meetings editors Eming Piansay and Sara Robertson chat with Michael Tennant, founder and CEO of Curiosity Lab, and Naomi Clare Crellin, founder and CEO of Storycraft Lab. These empathy experts have dedicated their careers to helping others embark on their personal empathy journeys and to design experiences with empathy at the center.

Sara Robertson also speaks with Dr. Lisa Belanger, CEO of ConsciousWorks, on the topic of loneliness within the events industry.

Editor’s note: This interview has been transcribed by Otter.ai and lightly edited. 

Eming Piansay How’s it going, Smart Start Radio? Hope you all are doing amazing today. I am your co-host, Empathy Eming Piansay.

Sara Robertson And I am your co-host, Sara Robertson. I could not come- Eming is always coming in with the alliteration introductions, and she’s too quick for me. I didn’t expect it this time, and she did it again.

EP Well, that’s our theme for today. In case, I want to kick it off with that since, so everyone knows exactly where our focus is today. So our focus on this episode is empathy, specifically in the meeting space, which personally I feel often doesn’t get discussed or brought into the light very often in terms of events. And I am very happy, very, very happy that we are doing this this month, because I feel like as we approach the holiday season, just coming up, so shockingly, it’s already October. Who knew?

SR Who knew?

EP Who knew the year could move this fast?

SR Start Christmas shopping.

EP Oh God, no, no, no, no, no, no. Money. Save money. Well, for me, anyways, save money. But before we start things off, our breaking news for this particular episode is the Hurricane Helene.

SR It’s hurricane Helene. So, Hurricane, Hurricane Helene hit Florida, the Big Bend region, which is not as common area for hurricanes to hit. Usually, it’s a panhandle region. So, this hurricane, Hurricane Helene, has been pretty devastating, widespread flooding across Florida, moved up through Georgia, South Carolina, huge effects in North Carolina as well as East Tennessee and Kentucky. So, a lot of these regions and cities are facing extensive damage right now. As they continue to sort of rebuild, repair, deploy search and rescue missions over the next couple of weeks, we have yet to know really how long lasting the effects will be.

So, if you’re a meeting planner and you’re reading about this hurricane and you’re wondering what to do, I think, going along with the theme of this episode, in terms of empathy in the meeting space, I think just you know, have empathy for your partners out there. Have empathy that they are dealing with a really, really unprecedented, a storm that’s that caused unprecedented damage. We haven’t seen this level of damage in decades, according to what plenty of news sites are publishing about the storm. So, you know, you may see longer response times. You may have questions in the air right now.

On our site, we have a lot of resources about contingency planning, about what to do. We have a story on this storm and the effects, and we’ll continue to update it as news continues to come out. Stay in touch with your suppliers in those regions. Reach out, let them know that you’re thinking of them and have empathy for you know, slower than normal response times as they work to rebuild with their communities.

EP Yeah, traveling specifically requires a lot of empathy. I remember I was on a flight, or, I think I was in Canada a little while back, and our plane was delayed, and you can slowly see the degrade in empathy for the staff who didn’t have any answers for us.

And it was interesting to see in real time that people had empathy to a point and then when you feel like you’re not getting heard or listened to, is when that kind of starts to degrade a little bit. So, we talked to a couple people. Sara spoke to someone as well prior to this recording about kind of some concepts around empathy that you as our listeners may think are helpful. So Sara, do you want to kind of explain what it was about?

SR So this is a story on loneliness specifically, so somewhat related to empathy, and that, you know, empathy in the meeting space and tackling loneliness and how it shows up in the meeting space are really, really similar. So this will be feature story in the Nozem- November. Oh, I said, Nozember.

EP That could be a month. Nozember.

SR A feature story in the November magazine, and this is a little preview to it. So I spoke to Lisa Belanger. She is a PhD and the CEO of Conscious Works. I saw her speak at CMP advance for EIC last March? Long time ago, in Toronto, and she was just phenomenal. So I reached out to her for this story. She has a lot to say about conscious connection. So in this interview, she offered some really, really solid tips about how to create real, authentic connection in your meetings. So, let’s dive right into it.

Lisa Belanger So whether it is, get an office when there needs to be, you, we need to do this creative task, or we need people to meet and connect, or if it’s more, we’re going to have four conferences a year now. That’s how we’re going to bring people together. To really think through them, instead of just like we’ll place everybody in a room and we’ll be connected. That’s not how it works. There is some facilitation that needs to happen, and some thought process before, during and after, to facilitate. I joke around, I think I did in the keynote too, to, like, make friends as adults. Like,

SR It is, it’s so hard.

LB Yes.

SR It is really difficult. Yeah, so, so what kinds of things can people implement at, you know, these four conferences a year, or whatever form the meeting may take, what can they implement that is going to help create, like, real, authentic connection?

LB I think there’s a few things like, it depends on, like, there’s different events in my mind, on their purpose and like, their size and structure, right? So I’m just going to go over some things that might be applicable to one and not the other. But, yeah, understanding what people want before. So kind of getting a pre survey or informal discussions about, we’re coming together, we’re discussing X, Y and Z, this is the purpose of this meeting. Is like, are there things that you want and what?

So one of the organizations I’m working with is, they want the company to de silo, because they work in these groups, and they want to be able to have the resources to draw on other parts of the company, but they don’t even know who Bob is from accounting! Like so there’s getting a sense of what that is, and then structuring programming accordingly. And making space and breadth to get to that connection piece, not just the technical programming.

I’ve seen, like most conferences now, have this like conscious thought process of, oh, we’re going to host yoga classes, we’re going to do, all go to soccer game. We’re going to do whatever this might be, but just being really mindful, if we are not being as inclusive as we could be, on what those events are. We often get events, planners, or HR, whoever, kind of involved, doing activities they like. And with good reason, so, I’m somebody who does yoga, so I love that there’s yoga at conferences.

But who are you including, and who are you excluding? And just being a little bit mindful on that. Again, going back to, like, what people want from it, and then understanding people connect in really different ways. So, one of the best programming elements that is so simple to do, to facilitate, is getting leaders at different tables with topics they’re talking about. So it’s like, I love The Simpsons. So, I’m gonna, this table is talking about “The Simpsons.” This table’s talking about hockey. This one’s talking about interior design. This is like, and so it’s not work related.

And people can hop from tables, but they’re getting this one-on-one conversation that actually levels, like takes away hierarchy in a lot of ways, if they’re excited, and if they don’t have one, they start a table. Right? If they’re like, none of these really interest me, I’m gonna start a table. So cheap, so effective. Another one, depending on the size of the meeting, doing coffee roulette, so scheduling, even a half an hour, providing delicious coffee, and just sectioning around, connecting people that wouldn’t normally be connected, literally by random assignment.

Now, this is stressful for some people, to make small talk, and to meet new people. So being able to provide a comfort level around this, and I love- I saw one conference do this. I’m a reader, I love reading. I’m a social person, but I also love reading.

SR No, I love reading, yeah.

LB At an event, like, you’ve got choices of what you can do. One of them was to grab a really good book, and they’d have a bunch of comfy spaces you could, like simply read within the presence of other people.

SR Oh, so cool.

LB And I love that idea, of just like different socialization. Yeah, so that was one thing I talked about. Oh, having a conscious conversation at conferences about connection.

SR Right.

LB And about loneliness, and about being able to open up the importance of that, right?

EP That was really great, Sara, thank you for that. Moving right along, I promise this isn’t like a downer episode. I know. It’s not.

SR It’s not!

EP It’s actually really interesting! But we spoke with two experts in empathy. We spoke with Naomi Crellin from Storycraft Lab, as well as Michael Tennant from Curiosity Lab, about the importance of empathy in the meeting space, and they gave us some really awesome thoughts behind it. And we really hope you enjoy this episode, because I was over the moon, over the moon to have these two on our show. And I know Sara, Sara was just listening her, her- if, if you watch our video version of this on YouTube, you can see her just like absorbing all the information.

SR If you could see, you know, heart eyes appear on a real human face, that’s what you will see, because these guys were phenomenal and brilliant, and I’m so excited for you guys to listen to them.

EP So let’s throw this over to our conversation about empathy. Coming at you now. Enjoy.

SR Welcome back, dear listeners to Smart Start Radio, The Meeting Planners Toolbox. I am your co-host, Sara Robertson.

EP And I’m Eming Piansay.

SR Today, we are joined by Michael Tennant, the founder and CEO of Curiosity Lab and author of The Power of Empathy, along with Naomi Clare Crellin, founder and CEO of Storycraft Lab. And, may I mention, a 2022 Smart Woman in Meetings: Innovator award winner. We love ‘em. We see ‘em.

EP Bravo.

SR Welcome Naomi. Welcome Michael.

EP Excited to have you guys.

SR So excited to have you guys here. Today we are going to talk about empathy and how we can fit it into the world of meetings.

EP Yeah, I’ve been really excited about this talk, because I’ve been trying to find a way to have a DEI conversation on the show. So, I’m really excited that we’re doing this. One really big thing that I think we, at our magazine, kind of try to figure out the time is, you know, the whole idea of a meeting is like you’re gathering people, you’re looking to feel, experience and remember that experience, and go home with like, you learn something from said experience. So, one question I really wanted to ask you guys is, how do you open the door for people to be more thoughtful and more caring about the space they’re creating for people? And I know you both have experience with that, whoever wants to start can start, but that’s kind of where I wanted to start this conversation.

Naomi Clare Crellin Oh, okay, all right, so how do we get people to be more empathetic and caring? I actually have to say that I think that there is a deeply held desire for people to feel a sense of belonging and empathetic and emotional connection with other humans, that, you know, that, oftentimes as we’re putting meetings together, I personally haven’t encountered people that are resistant to, to that. But that said, you know, the busy-ness of life and the structures that we have in place and the way we’ve always done things and our methods and processes don’t often just open up, as you said, I mean, the space for that work to be done.

So, I often say, as we think about empathizing with others, start with yourself first, because there’s, there’s a lot to be learned from sitting with your own goals and intentions and needs, and desires, and hopes, and dreams and understanding where those are, so that you can then, in turn, open up to another person and ask them about how they feel about all of those things. Because once you start talking with that self-awareness around what’s driving you and what matters to you, with other humans about what’s driving them and what matters to them, that way, the magic can begin, you know, that way, you start to learn and listen. But I think that there’s absolutely value in starting with yourself. It’s, it’s like the oxygen mask, yeah, and then you can extend that to others.

SR Definitely, that’s interesting that you say that because, Michael, I noticed from looking at your book, you sort of take people along this journey of empathy. You have them start with themselves, and then the circle slowly widens.

Michael Tennant Yeah, thank you for for, like, just intuitively going there, because I was sort of thinking that as well. And, Naomi, your point about, you know, just opening up and starting with yourself, I think, I think that most of us, when we go into meeting spaces, we maybe don’t even realize it, but we’re about to step into some level of vulnerability. We’re going to be with people we know, we intend to engage with people we don’t know. We may want to, we’re going to want to bring our best selves forward.

We may be wrestling with whether that, how to deliver that in a way that feels authentic to you. But everyone has some element of that that they’re wrestling with. And I think, if we all could acknowledge that we’re coming in with some vulnerability, we’re coming in with some fears, we’re coming in with some unknown, it helps us to open up even more to, to the presence of our ego and the ways in which people we encounter, or even ourselves, we may, you know, act or behave in a way that is slightly outside of, outside of what’s authentic to us. So, I think when, I love, Sara, that you talked about what phase one in my book, The Power of Empathy, phase one of the five phases of empathy, it really starts with learning to recognize and be with your most challenging emotions. Ideally, we’re feeling joy most of the time.

I say actually, I’ll speak for myself, when I’m feeling joy, I actually sometimes lose my train of thought. I end up presenting myself, at times, in a very authentic way, but maybe sometimes too elevated. And so just even, even joy, not just the challenging emotions of fear and sadness and shame or even anger, if the safety in the space is disrupted. But the very first thing we teach meeting organizers, or we teach attendees, it kind of goes hand-in-hand is, what does it look like for us to all be willing to and vulnerable enough to recognize, be with and actually bring our emotions into the, into the interactions in the space? Cause then, certain, that vulnerability, that, that willingness to model, it really opens up magic in connection,

SR Absolutely

MT Which Naomi, I feel, was alluding to as well.

SR Yeah, I think ego can really- well, I think like beneath ego is a lot of fear in how like we present ourselves. We are so worried of, being judged that we’ll present ourselves in certain ways that may be inauthentic to us. But Michael, I have a question for you that might be kind of complicated, but I have a feeling that you’ve got it. So, when people are experiencing this ego, like this fear, what does joy do to help counteract that? Does it do anything?

MT Yeah, I mean, I think that, I think that for me, as an event organizer, one of the first things that I do is find a meditative state. I’m a meditator. I like to journal. Even in the process of having an interview with the other event organizers and really attuning myself to receiving as much as possible, can be a meditative practice within itself. But when you’re able to almost sort of separate from your design, separate from your plan, and start to almost like imagine the diverse community that you’re about to touch, it brings in so much inspiration.

Now, obviously, an outcome that we all want, at least on the, at the end, as people reflect on the event is a feeling of joy, a feeling of warmth, something that they want to repeat, something they want to share. They want to tell narratives from it. They want to repeat elements that they’ve received. And I really love, even just like embodying the moments that I’ve witnessed, creating that, the moments that I felt that in events, and bringing that into the planning process, but also finding those, those moments that you know maybe started off as fear or started off as discomfort and managed to transform and how that happened in the event space. Yeah, that’s a, that’s a really interesting question, Sara. I’m curious, Naomi, what, what do you think about emotions and particularly joy in the event space?

NCC Yeah, I think that events, you know, the word event, seems to focus in on one particular moment, doesn’t it? But actually, when we think about narratives and experience, these are journeys, and the event itself is just one, one moment on an overall experience, journey, and all of the context and the up and down and the emotional roller coaster that comes with that. You know, I think what I’ve seen is that there’s a value to scaffolding as well throughout that entire experience.

So, to get somebody to a point of joy in one particular moment, you really have to be thinking about how you ease them to that place, right? That was one of the things that we heard about in the research on belonging that we’ve been doing, is that, you know, belonging is not a binary thing. It is this outcome of a series of connected, adjacent experienced moments, right? And the role of joy, actually, joy was one of the pathways to belonging that we found, is like, how do you find your joy?

And the journey towards that begins by understanding what your joy is, right? And, and there is inherently, in that journey towards joy, those moments of discomfort, as Michael was talking about, you know, you may begin with a sense of, I’m not feeling joy right now. How can I go about finding that joy for myself, knowing the value of joy to me as an outcome, you know, so it’s, I think, looking at just optionality as a way for people to explore and discover that joy. To be in a joyful state 100% of the time will be exhausting. I mean, people’s batteries just kind of frazzled. But there, there’s this arc, right?

And there’s a way that you kind of guide people through the process of understanding what their joy is, how, equip them with what they need to, to navigate the less than joyful state with positivity, you know? And I think that that kind of self-awareness as well. My mom always used to refer to it as a stretch and grow space. You know, that moment of stretching and growth is beyond your, your natural state at rest in supreme comfort, right?

You have to do that work to get to the ultimate reward. So, when we think about experience design and the context of events and, and meetings, it’s about giving people the tools to reach that joy themselves. You know, I think we have to release ourselves as event organizers from the delivery of the joyful moment every second of every day, and instead equip people with the tools to go out and find what their joy is, because it’s going to also be different for everybody. You know, Michael, you talked about this meditative state, right, that act of receiving, and how joyful that can be, and how you get yourself into that space, which I can very much relate to. But I know there are a number of people in my life that would define joy very differently. So, you know, I think providing those options and those navigational tools, once you have the self-awareness in place, is going to increase the likelihood of the joy being found, you know?

EP Yeah. I do want to take a step forward a little bit into, like, as people who kind of want to make people think about, you know, themselves and other people in a broader scope, I am curious how you both, or why you both create, created what you created, to do what you’re doing. Because personally, a lot of people don’t think about that, they don’t think about, you know, the human factor, the emotional factor, those things like that. So, what made you guys want to do that? And essentially, you know, build, build your, your lives off of that.

MT I did not deliberately move into the facilitation or keynote speaking or event organizing space. I spent most of my career as a marketer, storyteller, business development professional, working in media companies, and then moving over into advertising. And when I decided to leave a 15-year advertising career, it was largely because I did not feel safe bringing my best self, bringing my worst self. You know, upon reflection, four or five years of creating the safety, I realized that my excellence at work was masking a lot that I did not even know I needed to pursue, and my normalization of actually socializing a lot, and mixing in drinking, and just kind of always being on this high level really masked a lot for me. I would say, sadly and luckily, life happened, and luckily, I’d been learning tools in mindfulness, in personal development, in self-knowing, in men’s work, along the way, that when tragedy hit, and hit in my family, I was able to grab those tools just in the nick of time, and it also, the self-knowing that emerged from experiencing loss.

I ended up losing two of my brothers in 2019. That was kind of this catalyst of breaking from this life as a marketer and into this journey. I like that word that Naomi used, because it’s both a personal journey, but a journey that I’ve been able to bring outward and to turn into something that’s teachable, but I started to just organically connect to wanting to feel safer, to want to make sure that I’m surrounding myself with people who are values aligned and who are thinking about me and my well-being, and to get better at speaking up, for, to myself and for myself, when I don’t see myself in an environment that is going to be nourishing or is going to be, just is going to feel joyful, at the end. So, I think in many ways, I went on this journey of kind of being thrusted out of this illusion of safety in certain corporate settings, into really having the spaciousness, to unpacking why I felt that way, what I could learn to feel better, and then how I could pay it forward by helping to teach, actually the tools that I use to equip others.

So, I mean, in many ways, this is, this is like a manifestation of dreaming, a manifestation of a process that ends at almost attracting values aligned people who want to amplify the work. So here I’m actually in an interview, alongside my peers, alongside amplifiers who are speaking to thought leaders who can literally take the tools that we’ve developed and infuse them in their own ways into how they, they program design. So yeah, I mean, I guess how I got here is almost a product of experience design within itself, which is beautiful.

NCC That is beautiful.

SR Thank you for sharing that, Michael.

NCC Yeah, and I love the role of education. You know, a different story, but there are themes that resonate with what you talked about, Michael. For me, I began with this educational mindset, so I’ve been adjunct faculty for as long as anybody would have me, which has been a while now. And one of the things that I saw over and over and over again, is designers would get stuck with ideas, right? There’s this- being an educator in the design field is quite a precious and delicate role. You know, you’re helping people take an idea that’s in their head, that they have imagined and constructed and dreamed about, you’re helping them to articulate it, to express it to others, to bring others into that story. And there’s a lot of hopes and dreams and emotions that are associated with that process of expression.

So, for a number of years, I was a thesis advisor for masters’ students in exhibition design, and I would see them approach their thesis topic. Often, these topics are chosen by the student because of their emotional connection to the content, right? It is deeply held and deeply meaningful to them, and oftentimes it’s the result of thought that has happened over the course of several years. So, they approach this big topic. They have big ideas, and there’s always a point in the process where, ah, you know, and just feeling stuck, you know, and the way, the, time and time again, the way to get those students unstuck was to reconnect them with the power of empathy, right? Was to get them to step away from their stuckness, to get them to step away from whatever they were holding on to, whatever facet that was hanging them up, and look at it through the eyes of another, and try to relate it to the experience of another. And when I was able to help them do that, things started to move, and they started to get into flow state, and then that joy came back. Right? You know, the spark became joyful.

So, for me, I saw the value of empathy to the process of design and creation and manifestation. And what I found in my, my work at that point, kind of being agency side, was that I started to look around myself, at agencies, and I was talking to people about the value of empathy, and this is kind of pre-pandemic, and very much received the message that that was not necessarily what they wanted to hear from a designer. Why are you asking these difficult questions, Naomi? You know? And, we don’t have time in our very speedy process to think about the value of empathy, and at one point I was asked to not include that in my rationale or design choices, and that is the point at which I left.

EP Good call! Good call.

NCC But there was something I just, what I had to do was find that belief in my values. I was like, like, similar to Michael, I got to go out, find the people that understand this.

MT Right.

NCC Find the people that are going to empower me to do what I believe in and just go, just go get it and then give it back, right? And so, different sequence, different circumstances to you, Michael, but like similar themes, you know, threads in that tapestry that, woven together, there’s this just belief, belief in the value of, of the of the work of empathy. There’s the personal benefit that comes from the practice of empathy, right, being able to kind of work through things personally, using that, and then ultimately just seeing the benefit to others as well.

SR So, through the work that you both do, and the journeys that you’ve gone along on to develop the work that you do today, how do you define empathy? Like, what does it actually specifically mean to you, and what understanding do you want the people listening to this podcast to understand empathy as?

MT Naomi, you want to take this one?

NCC Okay, I would begin by saying empathy is letting go of what you think you know, because empathy can be transformative, right? But to do that, you do have to go through this process, and it’s probably in your five phases, Michael, just kind of knowing yourself and then letting go, setting that aside, and then, and then you can just be joyfully curious, right, which is why I love the name of your company, Michael, because I think curiosity and empathy are inherently.

MT There’s something I want to I want to say, that I just I’m grateful for that honoring. And at some point, I want to talk about just how deeply connected I felt to your conviction toward empathy and toward empathy’s role in the design process, so much so that you were willing to leave, it almost seems like that’s a part of the journey too, is knowing yourself and knowing your role in the bigger picture with such deep conviction that you’re willing to eventually step out of the systems that don’t see that.

NCC Yeah.

MT But also, I’d say the flip of that is that, and I know this is something you’ll probably be able to speak heavily to both in the empathy space, but also in the DEI space, is then, is then, almost like bringing that willingness to let go of what you know back into the room when you know you mean to affect people who are going to be resistant, are going to reject this, probably already hate it, you know, like and, and the narrative, they’re gonna hate me for doing this, and you still design to affect them positively, right? We’re like that, convicted that, like, committed to it.

But you know, for me, empathy and the way that Curiosity Lab approaches it at this point, is, for those, it is for the naysayers, in many ways, we’ve designed for the naysayers is, it’s, it’s a set of tools that helps you to understand yourself, understand others, and to understand your purpose, to the people that you’re interacting with, and to be willing to forget, or be willing to lower your ego, be willing to be, be momentarily wrong, if it means moment- momentarily wrong, if it means progressing the conversation, if it means showing people the vulnerability, the empathy of, of holding their truth as well as your truth. Sometimes, like, you have to show people what that looks like first, and then grit and bear it in a graceful way in order to invite them to do that.

And that’s just, you know, the cross that we bear as empathetic leaders, but also, I’d say as, as event organizers, what we’re planning isn’t always- most often, isn’t just for our particular taste, right? We may be selected because we’re the right person for that moment, but we’re going to be speaking to people who do not have our same taste, and so it’s incumbent upon us to, own our growth. As Mummy used to say, you know, to be to be willing to see our blind spots, which is, you know, empathy is a tool that helps us to do that.

EP I’m, I’m curious. So, in that respect, when you enter environments that you know people aren’t necessarily gonna like what you’re gonna say, has there been, for either of you, moments where that has happened and you were able to, like, basically change the room to your favor? Like, has it been a thing for you guys, if ever?

MT Well, I’ll go first to say that, you know, I’ve done a lot of work, and Naomi touched on this, on releasing attachment that I’m going to move everyone. I feel like that is that is self-care 101, for a facilitator and event meeting organizer. What I will say, is that I have had experiences where maybe going in, maybe not going in, but during my facilitation, all these narratives emerge around how poorly I’ve connected with the masses of the audience, or just someone who I managed to connect with visually.

And I actually felt something like, maybe I pushed them too far, or maybe we were, by the, my perception of what was going on from their face, what’s going on their heads, and then afterwards, having a connection with that, with one of these individuals, or many of these individuals, and learning that I was totally wrong. And they, they were moved, and they were in deep contemplation about something they had, they didn’t even know they needed or wanted to spend time with. And that was what was happening on their face. So, I’d say most present for me is times where, where I’ve had this idea that this wasn’t opening up the joy that I was hoping for, and then learning later on that I was off. And that I need to just trust in all the preparation, trust in the briefing, trust in in the intentionality of what we put together, and then be willing to receive the positive and the negative for the, the future of this journey.

NCC I think some of that, that’s beautiful, the, I think some, some of it comes down to, as a facilitator, as an educator in that room, letting, kind of, this constant inner dialogue around the extent to which you let go of a desire to control outcomes. And what is it that we’re trying to control here? Is it, is it outcomes? Is it moments? Is it ensuring that all voices are heard? You know? And I think that is something I’m still learning. You know, I’m always going to be learning. Always be learning. I actually just came away from an experience recently where there, there was an individual, kind of within a group of people, that was a naysayer and kind of aggressively so, but in not wanting to cut anybody’s voice off, I probably gave him more space than I should have done, because I came out of the conversation, not wanting to challenge, you know, he threw out like I disagree with you on XYZ, and I just said, Great, okay, that’s fine.

I’m not going to challenge anybody’s agreement or disagreement. But what I found afterwards was that there was somebody who came to me and said that witnessing his aggression made them feel unsafe to add their opinion, And at that point, I felt really sad, you know, because I felt like I had failed her by not being more concrete in shutting this individual down. What I had done was fallen into the trap of feeling personal about it, you know, that and just kind of letting that go. So, I think for me, it’s just always about keeping the group, everybody in the room, front of mind, and their benefit, and kind of, and it’s sometimes difficult to do in like 60-minute sessions.

You’re doing a thing. But most, you know over the course of a semester, say, where you’re working with a group of individuals, it’s easier to step in and out of that, that dynamic. But I think what that means is just those, those tools or those keywords. Maybe it’s a mantra, maybe it’s you know, you, you start off Michael with that kind of, what does it mean to be in a reflective state and receive?

And coming up with something that allows you to just reset, if you feel your vibration or your energy getting distracted away from that, some, it might be a hand movement. It might be a word. It might be a body movement that you can introduce into your routine, that allows you to signal to yourself. Nobody else needs to know. We’re resetting here. Let me look out to the group. And I think when you do feel challenged like that, in those moments, opening up to even more dialogue, which can seem counterintuitive at the time, right, if you’ve received a negative comment, to then invite more commentary into the room, but actually, what that helps to do is diffuse.

What I found in that particular situation was that 99% of the attendees were on board and were in the conversation, and it was just one individual that actually ended up throwing the things off for the group, you know. So, turning it back out to the group and seeing other opinions, that, at that point, the tide starts to shift and turn, and it’s, it’s all through more, more dialogue. So, yeah, still learning.

SR Yeah. We are all still learning. I think that’s one of the things that Eming and I come back to consistently with this podcast, is like, hi, hello. We’re fairly new to this industry, and we are here to learn. That’s why it’s called Smart Start. But okay, I had two things that I wanted to say. The first is that a little while ago, the two of you touched on a point that I think is really important, and I just want to reiterate, is the role of empathy in the job of a meeting planner.

Meeting planners, like the actual work that they are doing, is innately empathetic, because you are creating experiences, scenarios for other people. You are putting yourself in their shoes as you design these environments for them, and thinking about, what is going to help create the impact for these people that I want to make? What do they need, to see that impact? And then the second thing that I wanted to touch on is how, what steps planners can take, maybe to make situations like the one that Naomi just described less, I guess, common, like, what are, what are steps that you can take ahead of time to help your attendees be aware that, like, empathy is going to be a very important pillar of this meeting or event?

MT I’d love to jump in on that one, I got really excited. It is almost my on-ramp into, into this world. Prior to all of that change and self-reflection, I was, I was probably one of those naysayers, not a vocal one, but one that, especially in the subject of DEI, after 15 years in corporate America, and oftentimes, the one time a year that DEI kit would come into focus, after 15 years, they kind of look the same, and after them looking the same, you get kind of cynical. So that was my flavor of it, right? There are different versions of it. It was just like, you know, people who don’t get the environment, people who are one directional, people who aren’t creating the safety for healthy diverse discourse, and diverse discourse, I think, for me, that means differing opinions and, and likelihood of discomfort.

So, I mean, we ended up creating a game that gamifies teaching the ability to, A) not assume that everyone is ready for every conversation, not assume that the container is ready for that kind of discourse, but to get them there by starting light and leveling up. I actually have it here with me. It’s called Actually Curious. And in this box here are two additions, one that’s light and one that has four levels. And these are, this is the workhorse for my meeting organizing. But the last thing I want to say about this is that the game itself asks individuals to listen without interrupting other people’s sharing, and then to share from their perspective and not to engage in cross debating. And what that does is actually gamify ground rules that actually you know facilitators, us as facilitators when we have the space, and which we can always create the space, we can outline.

And so if we know that we want to get into topics that are uncomfortable, it might be worthwhile to show people model how to speak from “I’ or speak from their own experience, to give people other outs, other than trying to debate, like taking notes, or like Naomi said, reflecting on how that is showing up on a more deeper and intentional level, when you’re, instead of doing what we’re naturally kind of taught to do in our education system here and, in America and other parts of the West, which is to win. So, if we’re gonna then tamp that down, they’re actually like, we have to train that, or just like, give it a rule. You can’t do that, but you can do other things, like make a note or learn from it internally.

EP I’m so glad you brought up your game, because I wanted to tell a story! Based on how effective that was, and I was really close. Okay, so I was in a room with Michael a year or two ago, and we were in a group of people who weren’t getting along, and we were supposed to work together, and Michael just instinctively, wasn’t prompted, brings out his cards, and we played the game, and the vibe shifted. Immediately. It was really fascinating, because I knew what happened before, and then all of a sudden, it was like, we were laughing, we were happy, and I was like, it, his, everything he was working on was, was happening in real time, and it was really just amazing to see it in action. So, it’s, it’s, it works. It works. Like, it’s a thing.

MT I’m still cringing because I’m still in disbelief that it worked. And that was definitely one of those times where, where I was like, okay, we practiced this enough, let’s try it! And, and it just is so meaningful to hear it. And still uncomfortable.

EP I’m sorry. I’m really sorry.

SR Oh my gosh.

EP But it was a really good story.

SR No, that’s amazing. I mean, it’s a great example, it does work.

EP Mm-hm.

NCC People, they just need a little help, you know, I think, and that’s part of the empathetic processes, no judgment, but we need a tool here. Sometimes ego is a bigger, it takes a bigger presence in the room, and we need some way to move around it. So, congratulations, Michael, you did it. You know you found that.

MT And I love your willingness to share an example in which, in real time, at your experience level, with all of the forums that you’ve held. I mean, you’re, you’re a natural educator and facilitator. And even still, there are moments where we get it wrong,

NCC Yeah, yeah.

MT You know? But the willingness to, well, first of all, you shorten your learning ability when you’re willing to, to not, you know, abscond that moment, or, like, when you share it, you get to relive it, and then you, you get to almost practice, or even call in, call in, other examples.

NCC Yeah, which, you know, and I felt like I had learned more, and I actually, I had a great conversation with the, with folks after that experience. And it’s all cool. Everybody’s good, you know, but it was, it is, you know, these, these learning moments. They, they, they don’t stop. They shouldn’t ever stop, though, really, you know, if we could, every, every group of individuals that we encounter is, is going to be different. And, like I said, can have it, having the tools. It’s just about having some pieces in place that enable that empathetic process. And to go back to your two questions there was, the first one was, you know, how to what does it mean to build empathy into our process, right?

SR Yeah. Yeah. How do you prepare attendees to come into your event with empathy?

NCC Right, right, right? And we often, like, as we’re working with event teams, because it’s not usually kind of one planner alone, but it’s a whole group of stakeholders, and a little bit like the example that you were just giving, Eming. And part of, part of the empathetic work actually has to happen behind the scenes before you even you turn, you do the work with the attendees. So, we talk about how we extend empathy, not just to audience, but to stakeholders and clients, and getting everybody together on the same page.

One of the first examples of that was, in developing the Experience Profiles Tool, was working in a museum exhibition environment in which, it’s a national museum, there were about a curatorial team of, about 20 people were involved, in outlining what this exhibit was going to be. And curators are amazing, intelligent, deeply passionate humans who tend to have a similar affinity for ideas and objects.

And in the Smithsonian, they have a model called IPOP, which is actually thinking about audience interpretation, and ideas and objects are the I and the O, but there’s also people and physical environment that come into the mix as well. So, the first thing that we did with this group of curators was sit them down and have them take a test to discover where their preferences sit, and then we also tested some of the audience, right? So, it helped them connect with the audience. Because what they found was, well, curators tended to have one set of preferences.

When you start looking at a group of 12-year-olds or a family or, you know, people from one zip code versus another zip code, there was different levels of interest in different facets, right? So, giving them the tool to understand, number one, what their preferences were, and then number two, what the broader array of preferences could be, it actually allowed them to connect more deeply. So, and that that was at this point, about eight years ago, but it’s developed into the Experience Profiles as a tool that allows attendees to consider what their preference set is, also, identify and connect with people that have different preference sets.

They get to talk to one another about that. And actually, what we’ve seen, in a recent partnership with a group called In Go, you can take the Experience Profiles quiz and then it gets posted to LinkedIn, so people you know, you get your result that you’re a harmonizer, or you’re a thinker, and you can, you can post it automatically on LinkedIn.

And what started happening was that people use this as an opportunity to say kind things to each other, pre-event, you know? Yeah, and it was, it was just this vehicle for a positive resonance that helped people get excited about the event, help them turn up. You know, the work of belonging had begun in their journey, pre-event, then they could turn up with a certain set of recommended icebreaker questions or conversation starters or places to meet different people, and it becomes a vehicle for the connection that we all deeply desire. You know, like I’m feeling great connection with all of you. Michael, I feel like you’re a spirit human.

EP He’s very magical. I agree.

NCC Yeah. He’s got a unicorn vibe going on. Yeah, but you know, we all desire that in life, right? It’s joyful when we find it and we reflect it to one another. So again, it’s those, those tools that help people move through, whether it’s animosity or awkwardness, and get down to the space and now we can be joyful and connect.

EP Nice. Well, as we kind of wrap up our conversation, the last question we ask all our guests is, because this, this podcast, is to be like a, a box of tools and ideas for people to use, for their future, for their career as a planner, any tools you would offer you know, people who are trying to create events, who aren’t experts like you guys, obviously, because you guys are, you know, the kings of your of your hills, respectively. So, what would you offer people like me, or people who are planners, who aren’t you, things that they could utilize in their future events?

NCC They get, well, I think Michael’s tool. I’m gonna sign up for Michael’s card set right there.

EP It’s so good, it’s so good.

SR Seriously, I’m about to purchase that right after.

MT Actuallycurious.com.

NCC Actuallycurious.com. I’m just gonna amplify that for a sec, in a British accent.

MT Thank you so much, Naomi.

NCC You’re welcome. The Experience Profiles quiz is available to everybody on exprofiles.io, so that’s out there, and something you can utilize and learn a lot about.

SR I am also gonna be taking that quiz, right after we finish this.

MT IO?

NCC Yes, dot-I-O, exprofiles.io, so go, go there to take the quiz, and you can- It’s also something that, the quiz itself is freely available. So, if you’re wanting to kind of just have your team do it, or have event attendees do it, you can, you can do that too, as a way to experiment with getting people connected. There’s also another tool that I wanted to throw out there.

I’m teaching again at NYU, this fall, and we taught it for the first time last year, was belonging centered design, so the Wheel of Belonging, which is actually going to be at wob.storycraftlab.com, is a way for people to identify what belonging means to them. And then there’s a whole onward journey from there about how you do that for your audience, as a whole, but as a place to start, what does belonging mean to you? Go to W, O, B dot storycraftlab dot com, and explore the Wheel of Belonging.

MT I can’t wait to use these tools myself and to amplify your work when I’m convening as well as when recommending tools. As for me, I would love it if your listeners would pick up “The Power of Empathy” and use it to help stretch your own capacity for empathy, your own capacity for recognizing joy and amplifying it, but also for being with the more challenging emotions and using it in your, in your event design and when you are ready to continue practicing, of course, “The Power of Empathy” has 30 days of exercises that help you practice what you learn.

So, I’m sure you’re going to find a handful of exercises that you want to reuse. But after that, pick up the, pickup Actually Curious, as well. And, you know, just meet people where they’re at. Not everyone is ready to go really deep into empathy, and we have a system of questions that allow you to start light, to even start at kids and go up to adults, or start light and move up into the necessary conversations that we need to have to advance movements in DEI and otherwise.

EP Awesome. Well, thank you both so much for making time today. We really, this was, this was fun. I really loved this.

SR This was amazing. I like, I feel like I didn’t have much to say, because I just wanted to listen to the two of you talk. I was just like, immersed in this. You guys are amazing.

MT Connect with empathetic leadership knowledge. Well, well-selected. I’m so grateful I got to be on the show with you, Naomi.

NCC Aw, back at you, Michael. Yeah, just a joy. Really appreciate you, Sara and Eming, for thinking of us.

EP Of course!

NCC Yay.

SR Thank you both so much for being here.

NCC You’re welcome.

EP Well, Sara, I had a pleasure hosting with you, on this particular episode, as always.

SR It is always a pleasure hosting with you, on every episode. And also this one.

EP So, for the future, if you guys are curious in following this particular show, you can find us on Spotify, Apple, iTunes, on our website as well, at smartmeetings.com, or on YouTube, which is where we also have our video version of this this show. So please subscribe, listen, and if you have questions and you want to, if, or have certain topics that you’re interested in, please email us, at us, at editor@smartmeetings.com. Sara, is there anything else you want to add to this lovely, lovely topic? Anything that was interesting about our discussion that, like, stuck with you?

SR I think it’s just a matter of, you know, as we operate with empathy in meetings and events, we create a space where everybody feels more welcome and more engaged. And if making people feel good and happy isn’t quite enough, it also impacts your ROI. So, there’s plus sides everywhere. So, let’s move forward and operate with empathy everywhere, in our meetings and events, and in our lives, and just once again, thank you to Michael and Naomi for being brilliant people and taking the time out of their day to join us on this show. And thank you for taking the time to listen.

EP So what I’m hearing you say is empathy equals money.

SR It can! If that’s what you want it to.

EP It can, it can. I mean ROI.

SR But that’s not everything.

EP Yes, yes, I know, but we are a corporate girly podcast, so we have to

SR This as a corporate girly podcast!

EP If you know, you know,

SR yeah,

EP If you got this far, you know. Anyways, thank you all for joining us, and we look forward to our next episode dropping in November, which, I don’t know if you want to give them a little teaser, if you want, if not it’s fine.

SR Well, if you like to party, and you want to redefine what it means to party, we have a very special guest star. You might know this person. You’re gonna have to wait find out, though.

EP So stay tuned for November, first of the month, no not first of the month, first week of the month of November, our next episode will be dropping, but until then, we hope you enjoyed this one, and we hope to see you guys soon.

You’ve been listening to Smart Start Radio, a Smart Meetings production. Interested in being our next guest? Connect with us at editor@smartmeetings.com.